SignalTraffic Forums

mcorivervsaf wrote: Long ago, back on June 3rd, 2003, (Never forgot that day) I have seen in person, contractors from Welsbach Electric Corp., disassembling the older signals in Co-op City, in the Bronx, along almost all of Co-op City Boulevard, and all of Baychester Avenue, in my neighborhood. As far as that process went, the contractors had almost no problem replacing the signals in G.T.E. P-6's, since they were newer, the Winko-Matics, on the other hand, were much harder to replace, because of more ancient equipment inside.

The vehicular signals took quite a while to be replaced, as expected, but the pedestrian signals were another story, altogether! I saw one contractor on Co-op City Boulevard & Rombouts Avenue, actually take a hammer to a WALK/DONT WALK lens stuck in a door frame on a Winko-Matic ped, because the rubber gasket was fused together with the door, and he couldn't get it out by hand! Needless to say, he succeeded, but not without breaking the glass lens!

So, those original Winko-Matic pedestrian signals were truly a pain in the neck to retrofit. Thanks for the interesting story. As I now remember, over the years, I noticed that, in regards to those pedestrian signals in particular, some appeared slightly damaged on the outside after the conversion. From what you mentioned, I seem to have a clear picture of what some workers encountered when they had to retrofit them.

On Staten Island, the conversion did not take too long to complete, since this is probably because it is the only borough in New York City with the least amount of signalized intersections (under 600 from what I recall). Here today. Gone tomorrow. A good way to explain how quickly D.O.T. converted the signalized intersections throughout the borough as I remember.

What's funny to point out, too, is that, back in the early 2000s, some quite newly (then) installed signalized intersections had incandescent signal indications in use for a very, very short period of time. Three good examples of what I remember from my childhood were installed sometime in 1999 or so. Vespa Avenue and Arden Avenue, Arden Avenue and Village Greens Community Shopping Plaza, and Arden Avenue and Nedra Lane. Brand new worded G.T.E. P-6 pedestrian signals, not to mention fully incandescent 8" traffic signals (McCain and Eagle Mark IV). It wasn't until around 2 years later, though, that everything was altered at these signalized intersections. Kind of a waste of money and effort in my opinion.

mcorivervsaf wrote: By the way, Steven, if you ever pass through Manhattan, try to pass by Madison Avenue & 49th Street. On the northeast corner, there was a Winko-Matic ped signal with an AtLite LED lens that was installed, but had the box grid visor still there. The AtLite lens has since been replaced with a GE GT1 countdown timer, but the visor remains there!
Very odd, indeed!

I just viewed the signalized intersection on Google Map and saw that one with the original louver at the corner. Interesting find. Reminds me of the ones that I remember at the Gateway Shopping Plaza in Brooklyn, New York. Exit 15 off of the Belt Pkwy. Near the Brooklyn/Queens borderline. Though those were manufactured by General Traffic Equipment, and, though I haven't been in this area for quite a while, I'd like to think those pedestrian signals haven't been altered in any way.

steven1981 wrote:

mcorivervsaf wrote: Long ago, back on June 3rd, 2003, (Never forgot that day) I have seen in person, contractors from Welsbach Electric Corp., disassembling the older signals in Co-op City, in the Bronx, along almost all of Co-op City Boulevard, and all of Baychester Avenue, in my neighborhood. As far as that process went, the contractors had almost no problem replacing the signals in G.T.E. P-6's, since they were newer, the Winko-Matics, on the other hand, were much harder to replace, because of more ancient equipment inside.

The vehicular signals took quite a while to be replaced, as expected, but the pedestrian signals were another story, altogether! I saw one contractor on Co-op City Boulevard & Rombouts Avenue, actually take a hammer to a WALK/DONT WALK lens stuck in a door frame on a Winko-Matic ped, because the rubber gasket was fused together with the door, and he couldn't get it out by hand! Needless to say, he succeeded, but not without breaking the glass lens!

So, those original Winko-Matic pedestrian signals were truly a pain in the neck to retrofit. Thanks for the interesting story. As I now remember, over the years, I noticed that, in regards to those pedestrian signals in particular, some appeared slightly damaged on the outside after the conversion. From what you mentioned, I seem to have a clear picture of what some workers encountered when they had to retrofit them.

On Staten Island, the conversion did not take too long to complete, since this is probably because it is the only borough in New York City with the least amount of signalized intersections (under 600 from what I recall). Here today. Gone tomorrow. A good way to explain how quickly D.O.T. converted the signalized intersections throughout the borough as I remember.

What's funny to point out, too, is that, back in the early 2000s, some quite newly (then) installed signalized intersections had incandescent signal indications in use for a very, very short period of time. Three good examples of what I remember from my childhood were installed sometime in 1999 or so. Vespa Avenue and Arden Avenue, Arden Avenue and Village Greens Community Shopping Plaza, and Arden Avenue and Nedra Lane. Brand new worded G.T.E. P-6 pedestrian signals, not to mention fully incandescent 8" traffic signals (McCain and Eagle Mark IV). It wasn't until around 2 years later, though, that everything was altered at these signalized intersections. Kind of a waste of money and effort in my opinion.

mcorivervsaf wrote: By the way, Steven, if you ever pass through Manhattan, try to pass by Madison Avenue & 49th Street. On the northeast corner, there was a Winko-Matic ped signal with an AtLite LED lens that was installed, but had the box grid visor still there. The AtLite lens has since been replaced with a GE GT1 countdown timer, but the visor remains there!
Very odd, indeed!

I just viewed the signalized intersection on Google Map and saw that one with the original louver at the corner. Interesting find. Reminds me of the ones that I remember at the Gateway Shopping Plaza in Brooklyn, New York. Exit 15 off of the Belt Pkwy. Near the Brooklyn/Queens borderline. Though those were manufactured by General Traffic Equipment, and, though I haven't been in this area for quite a while, I'd like to think those pedestrian signals haven't been altered in any way.

Funny that you should mention that, there's a long stretch of Co-op City Boulevard that had some incandescent G.T.E. P-6 signals that were installed in late 2002, along the median crossover, before the conversion process took place. Too bad that they had to go, one year later! Bah!

Looking back on all this, I don't know about the condition of the Winko-Matics down in Staten Island back in the early 2000's before conversion, but the WM's up in my neck of the woods, were a mixed bag. There were visor grids severely damaged, glass lenses broken before removal, and there was one that had one door hinge broken, and when that particular one was replaced with an AtLite LED lens, they had put tape on the bottom front of the signal to hold it in place. Very sloppy, and unprofessional. I took a walk along East 222nd Street in the Bronx, and from all the signals replaced, there were bits of rubber gaskets all over the place, and spots of what looked like black soot, beneath Winko-Matic peds. Finally, there was a Peterco ped, with the visor innards ripped out, but with the outer shell remaining. I consider that an eyesore. Ugh!

One final question: Does your AtLite LED lens have one white (neutral) wire, or two?

mcorivervsaf wrote:Looking back on all this, I don't know about the condition of the Winko-Matics down in Staten Island back in the early 2000's before conversion, but the WM's up in my neck of the woods, were a mixed bag. There were visor grids severely damaged, glass lenses broken before removal, and there was one that had one door hinge broken, and when that particular one was replaced with an AtLite LED lens, they had put tape on the bottom front of the signal to hold it in place. Very sloppy, and unprofessional. I took a walk along East 222nd Street in the Bronx, and from all the signals replaced, there were bits of rubber gaskets all over the place, and spots of what looked like black soot, beneath Winko-Matic peds. Finally, there was a Peterco ped, with the visor innards ripped out, but with the outer shell remaining. I consider that an eyesore. Ugh!

I recall from memory that the Winko-Matic pedestrian signals (prior to conversion) on Staten Island were in good shape. I suppose it really comes down to the kind of environment they were in.

mcorivervsaf wrote:One final question: Does your AtLite LED lens have one white (neutral) wire, or two?

Mine has one neutral wire, hand wire, and man wire. It would be odd to have two neutral wires, no?

steven1981 wrote:

mcorivervsaf wrote:Looking back on all this, I don't know about the condition of the Winko-Matics down in Staten Island back in the early 2000's before conversion, but the WM's up in my neck of the woods, were a mixed bag. There were visor grids severely damaged, glass lenses broken before removal, and there was one that had one door hinge broken, and when that particular one was replaced with an AtLite LED lens, they had put tape on the bottom front of the signal to hold it in place. Very sloppy, and unprofessional. I took a walk along East 222nd Street in the Bronx, and from all the signals replaced, there were bits of rubber gaskets all over the place, and spots of what looked like black soot, beneath Winko-Matic peds. Finally, there was a Peterco ped, with the visor innards ripped out, but with the outer shell remaining. I consider that an eyesore. Ugh!

I recall from memory that the Winko-Matic pedestrian signals (prior to conversion) on Staten Island were in good shape. I suppose it really comes down to the kind of environment they were in.

mcorivervsaf wrote:One final question: Does your AtLite LED lens have one white (neutral) wire, or two?

Mine has one neutral wire, hand wire, and man wire. It would be odd to have two neutral wires, no?

Believe it or not, you have a later model AtLite LED lens. I have both versions. The earliest models (PD-2000) were manufactured in 2000. These are the LED peds that were first tested in late 2000, along Queens Boulevard & 35th Street, as part of a pilot project. More of these would be produced for replacements in the early stages of replacing signals in Queens & Staten Island. These units are bulkier than the later models, and have separate wires for both the "hand" & "man" commands. (Two "hot" wires, two "neutrals") In 2001, AtLite released the updated version. Those were more common in Manhattan, Brooklyn, & The Bronx. Anything with a number added (e.g. PD-2001-3), was a smaller, condensed model. I believe it was changed as a cost-saving measure.

mcorivervsaf wrote:Believe it or not, you have a later model AtLite LED lens. I have both versions. The earliest models (PD-2000) were manufactured in 2000. These are the LED peds that were first tested in late 2000, along Queens Boulevard & 35th Street, as part of a pilot project. More of these would be produced for replacements in the early stages of replacing signals in Queens & Staten Island. These units are bulkier than the later models, and have separate wires for both the "hand" & "man" commands. (Two "hot" wires, two "neutrals") In 2001, AtLite released the updated version. Those were more common in Manhattan, Brooklyn, & The Bronx. Anything with a number added (e.g. PD-2001-3), was a smaller, condensed model. I believe it was changed as a cost-saving measure.

Right. I am aware of this first version. I do remember that many original worded pedestrian signals throughout Staten Island were retrofitted with them. Others were retrofitted with the second model, such as what I currently have. The first version was a tad bit more common than the second one. Both versions are slowly dwindling as of present day on Staten Island, since, over the years, of course, many have been replaced with newer inserts, not to mention countdown module inserts.

The first time I saw the hand and man on Staten Island was at the intersection of Goethals Rd. N. and Forest Avenue. Near the Goethals Bridge. This was probably in 2001 I believe, and this was a newly constructed signalized intersection at the time. The G.T.E. P-6 housings that were installed there originally used the inserts that were of the first version, so, at the time, this insert was used at newly installed signalized intersections as well. Alas, only one that dates back to the installment still remains at this intersection as of present day. The others have been long replaced with newer inserts that were manufactured by DiaLight.

The set-up in regards to the wiring and description of the first model is interesting to know, since I generally assumed that it was practically identical to the second one. Thanks for that information.

An easy way to tell which model is which (if you're on the street) is to look at the borderline, in which surrounds the hand and man. The first version had a noticeable borderline, in which was black (see picture below), while, on the other hand, the second one lacks it. I guess that one is rather clear in appearance. I don't know about you, but I personally like the original black borderline. I think CooperLED/AtLite Inc. should have not altered it.

steven1981 wrote:

mcorivervsaf wrote:Believe it or not, you have a later model AtLite LED lens. I have both versions. The earliest models (PD-2000) were manufactured in 2000. These are the LED peds that were first tested in late 2000, along Queens Boulevard & 35th Street, as part of a pilot project. More of these would be produced for replacements in the early stages of replacing signals in Queens & Staten Island. These units are bulkier than the later models, and have separate wires for both the "hand" & "man" commands. (Two "hot" wires, two "neutrals") In 2001, AtLite released the updated version. Those were more common in Manhattan, Brooklyn, & The Bronx. Anything with a number added (e.g. PD-2001-3), was a smaller, condensed model. I believe it was changed as a cost-saving measure.

Right. I am aware of this first version. I do remember that many original worded pedestrian signals throughout Staten Island were retrofitted with them. Others were retrofitted with the second model, such as what I currently have. The first version was a tad bit more common than the second one. Both versions are slowly dwindling as of present day on Staten Island, since, over the years, of course, many have been replaced with newer inserts, not to mention countdown module inserts.

The first time I saw the hand and man on Staten Island was at the intersection of Goethals Rd. N. and Forest Avenue. Near the Goethals Bridge. This was probably in 2001 I believe, and this was a newly constructed signalized intersection at the time. The G.T.E. P-6 housings that were installed there originally used the inserts that were of the first version, so, at the time, this insert was used at newly installed signalized intersections as well. Alas, only one that dates back to the installment still remains at this intersection as of present day. The others have been long replaced with newer inserts that were manufactured by DiaLight.

The set-up in regards to the wiring and description of the first model is interesting to know, since I generally assumed that it was practically identical to the second one. Thanks for that information.

An easy way to tell which model is which (if you're on the street) is to look at the borderline, in which surrounds the hand and man. The first version had a noticeable borderline, in which was black (see picture below), while, on the other hand, the second one lacks it. I guess that one is rather clear in appearance. I don't know about you, but I personally like the original black borderline. I think CooperLED/AtLite Inc. should have not altered it.

Affirmative! The earlier AtLite lenses were indeed, more anatomically-correct with the international symbols, when they were produced. Especially the upraised hand. They happen to look more presentable, as well. The later model looks more like an oven mitt, than a proper hand! It took until 2005, for GE to come up with a more anatomically-correct hand to appear in use for newer, or replacement signals. Later, came the other brands from Dialight & Leotek.

I'm going to post a few shots of my LED lenses here, over the following weekend, stay tuned, Steven!

steven1981 wrote:The second generation lacks the "cap" on the back of the housing, and, overall, it wouldn't be ideal for what I have, simply because I never came across a CooperLED/AtLite Inc. module insert inside of one. I want to try to be as authentic as possible, and I may consider to search for a first generation.

I do realize at this time that the second version of the CooperLED/AtLite Inc. module insert was actually used in the second generation of General Traffic Equipment's P-6 housing. I viewed some pictures I took of the intersection of St. Mark's Place and Victory Blvd. on Staten Island in 2012 and saw the housings for a second time (up-close).

I've decided to purchase one for the insert soon. The Winko-Matic will be altered to how it originally was.

steven1981 wrote:

steven1981 wrote:The second generation lacks the "cap" on the back of the housing, and, overall, it wouldn't be ideal for what I have, simply because I never came across a CooperLED/AtLite Inc. module insert inside of one. I want to try to be as authentic as possible, and I may consider to search for a first generation.

I do realize at this time that the second version of the CooperLED/AtLite Inc. module insert was actually used in the second generation of General Traffic Equipment's P-6 housing. I viewed some pictures I took of the intersection of St. Mark's Place and Victory Blvd. on Staten Island in 2012 and saw the housings for a second time (up-close).

I've decided to purchase one for the insert soon. The Winko-Matic will be altered to how it originally was.

Great news, Steven! The only way that I would recommend you leaving an AtLite LED lens in a Winko-Matic signal for a long-term period, is if you have more than one in your collection. It can be a constant pain to keep switching the signal innards back & forth, as I'm sure you're aware. Putting my later model AtLite LED inside my first Winko-Matic was more trouble than it was worth. Stress cracks developed over the span of a month's worth of time.

mcorivervsaf wrote:The only way that I would recommend you leaving an AtLite LED lens in a Winko-Matic signal for a long-term period, is if you have more than one in your collection. It can be a constant pain to keep switching the signal innards back & forth, as I'm sure you're aware. Putting my later model AtLite LED inside my first Winko-Matic was more trouble than it was worth. Stress cracks developed over the span of a month's worth of time.

I am not necessarily concerned to purchase another Winko-Matic housing as of now. The G.T.E. P-6 housing that I intend to acquire soon will be the permanent home for the CooperLED/AtLite Inc. that I have. Like I said a while back, I want to be as authentic as possible, and the housing (second generation) will be ideal to have for it. I'll have a good housing and module insert to compare to worded pedestrian signal from Winko-Matic. I'll remove the insert as soon as I receive a marathon terminal block for the Winko-Matic, in which I already purchased online. Just to keep up with the N.Y.C. motif.

As far as those stress cracks are concerned, I already have a couple on mine, in which I mentioned a while back here in this thread. Was probably used in Winko-Matic, but I am sure the new housing from G.T.E. will be a nice fit.

Steven, here's both of my AtLite LED lenses, the one on the left is from the original production run in 2000, the one on the right, the condensed version from 2003:



As you may know, the original production AtLite lens that I own, was an acquisition from a seller on eBay, who sold it to me for about $20.00. It was a disused signal with several LED segments having burnt out filaments, so it's not 100%. After all, you know what they say: "You get what you pay for!"

This particular model had to have been used in a Winko-Matic ped signal, due to the fact that there are small splatters of paint residue on the lens & gasket. Here's a few shots of the signals:


Upraised hand:


Walking man:



The later version, much like the one you received, remains in my G.T.E. P-6 signal housing. Naturally, it is 100% functional, although it has flaws of its own:

Upraised hand:


Walking man:



Side by side comparison:




Here's the rear end of the signals. As I mentioned before, the signals' plastic material was modified for the later production units in order to cut down on costs. One negative side effect, is that the images of the hand & man are not as anatomically correct, as on the other units. Another, is the use of only one neutral wire, instead of two:



Diagonal view:


Early production lens serial number & tag:


Later production lens serial number & tag:


As you can see, the first ever NYC LED pedestrian signals had an interesting history, which you now have a piece of! I can't wait to see yours in your G.T.E. P-6, once you receive it! Enjoy the pics, and take care!