(Red/Yellow Arrows) Why are they not used?

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(Red/Yellow Arrows) Why are they not used?

Postby signal-in-the-box on Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:14 pm

1. Red (& Yellow) Arrows
All of the protected turn signals (left & right) inside Charlottesville city are R-Y-GA. Most of these signals have no signs to go with them either. There are a few with redundant bimodal arrows in the green section. Other than that, they only have green arrows.
Outside city limits, all of the turn signals (both left & right) are R-YA-GA. Most of these signals do have signs, with the turn arrow and 'ONLY' below.
There are two intersections with RA-YA-GA signals, in both situations for traffic coming off the side road at a T intersection.
The MUTCD says left turn signal must have all sections as arrows, and right turn signals must have yellow & green arrows with red arrow or ball.
All of these signals function the same as they would if they had red arrows... so why, even for new / LED converted signals, do they only use green or green & yellow arrows?

R-Y-GA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1_xrWqDzgg
R-YA-GA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAG8D7XadV4
R-Y-BA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGOmcOcQstU


2. Spanwires
The last 2 diagonal spanwires in Charlottesville (not counting those for beacon clusters) were removed within the last 2 years. The last box span (which was recently redone, with new Siemens signals and NAI doghouses) is now under construction again, and mast arms are being put up. I know masts are stronger, but is there a reason spans are specifically being avoided?
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Re: Why are they not used

Postby notMUTCDcompliant on Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:17 pm

Cause VA has decided not to use them.....

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Re: Why are they not used

Postby weatherdan882002 on Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:21 pm

Here in NYS, you cannot turn on red if you have a red right-turn arrow. However, many people (including myself at first), don't know that and they usually have to install a "NO TURN ON RED" sign anyway.

As far as yellow arrows, I've seen some intersections use the ball, others use the arrow, but unlike the red, it makes no difference.

Here's something interesting though:

http://goo.gl/maps/dxr9b

It may be a bit difficult to tell, but the left-turn signal on the left has a yellow arrow, but the left-turn signal on the right has a yellow ball! Just one of the several things wrong w/ this intersection. :Phil:
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Re: Why are they not used

Postby Kilted_Econolite_Nut on Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:34 am

Here in WA, most of the older installs that still happen to be incandescent have red balls (and sometimes yellow balls) in left turn heads. If they've been upgraded to LED, arrows have been installed. 8-8-12's are pretty much always RYGA. Same with those remaining 12-8-12 heads. Or the last remaining 12-8-8 left turn install I know of.

Re: the removal of spanwire installs - the mast arms typically have better wind resistance, even when you have the support wire below the heads. Plus, they typically look nicer, except when you have the huge monotube mast arms that states like NY seem to be installing. Those seem to be overkill for just a pair of 12" RYG heads. The mast arms used here in WA typically are tapered, so they aren't as massive at the ends. With the exception of Seattle and, I think, Tacoma and Pierce County, most new installs that are spanwire are temporary installs, not permanent. The last spanwire install I've seen my county put up was from 2004. It and an install that was erected in 2000 are slated to be converted to mast arm in the next 3-4 years. Everything else that has been put up recently is mast arm.

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Re: Why are they not used

Postby vaughnsimon on Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:24 am

signal-in-the-box wrote: I know masts are stronger, but is there a reason spans are specifically being avoided?


In my opinion, it comes down to whatever the person currently in charge prefers and has always done before.

I could easily write 1000 words here about the advantages and disadvantages of spans over mast arms, and probably wouldn't say anything that hasn't been said before here. Span wire installations are easier for a signal shop to do "in house", while we considered mast arms more of a contractor job. Thus, if we had a block of money from a grant or bond issue, we tended to go with mast arms. If the job came out of our regular budget, it was done in-house out of our regular budget, which implied span wires.
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Re: (Red/Yellow Arrows) Why are they not used?

Postby 3Mfanatic on Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:41 pm

Most of the old school Oregon left turn signals (8/8/12s at first and then 3Ms) were R-Y-GA although there were some all-arrow 3M signals before the big slaughter a couple years back.

Usually on the terminating end of a T, Oregon uses all ball signals. To see all arrows at a T is rare unless there is a dedicated ped phase.
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Re: (Red/Yellow Arrows) Why are they not used?

Postby TAFeltman on Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:54 pm

In regards to Arrow lenses:
Missouri is retrofitting all Left/Right Turn Signals to RA YA GA from the existing R Y GA /R YA GA
As well as changing R Y G "Yield on Green" to RA YA FYA

Did the same thing in the early 1980's when they wholesale changed Y to YA on turn signals. There were no Red Arrows here before 2010 :crazy:

In regard to span wire:
Assume its a local preference. We have few span wire installs in St Louis, but MoDOT uses them extensively outstate
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Re: (Red/Yellow Arrows) Why are they not used?

Postby signal-in-the-box on Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:47 am

TAFeltman wrote:In regard to span wire:
Assume its a local preference. We have few span wire installs in St Louis, but MoDOT uses them extensively outstate

Ok. But why would they replace the brand new signals with more brand new signals?
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Re: (Red/Yellow Arrows) Why are they not used?

Postby 3Mfanatic on Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:18 pm

signal-in-the-box wrote:Ok. But why would they replace the brand new signals with more brand new signals?


You're not familiar with the motto of government spending, are you? Can we spend more money on it? Yes. Does it need to be spent? No. But do it anyway.

Here's a case in point for you: Last night I was driving down Highway 217 which the state is repaving. They came through, ground the existing asphalt on the bridges and overpasses down to the concrete base and then laid fresh asphalt on top of those first with the plan of grinding up and repaving the road around it a day or so later. What was the grinder doing last night? He was going over the creek bridge, grinding up the asphalt that had only been laid there a week before. :rob:
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